Move Aside Wafa Sultan
A couple of weeks ago I saw an Al Hurra interview with a Yemeni lady called Elham Manea. The lady amazed me with her common sense and intellect. Unlike Wafa Sultan, Manea is a professing Muslim with a reform mind we are all in dire need of.
Manea, who lives in Switzerland, talked about religious reform and how Islamic jurisdiction didn’t witness any change from over a thousand years.
I googled up Elham Manea’s name and found a number of her articles. One article really grabbed my attention. It was a very controversial article (Arabic)yet she made perfect sense. Manea was describing her feelings when she once decided to pray while still having her monthly period! She said she was very apprehensive at the beginning, yet when she finished she felt God was no so angry with her. Makes sense huh.
Well, your link is broken and I donÂ’t like her. She seems to imagine that Islam is just a good thing and specifically that Switzerland should accept it as an official religion. ThatÂ’s exactly in line with IslamistsÂ’ wishes of course; because Swiss people would then help financing the spreading of IslamÂ’s around here and could hardly fight against it anymore.
We would then soon have to accept minarets, separate classes, jilbabs and more. ThatÂ’s stupid or malicious. Everything shows that Islam, any kind of Islam, helps more Islamism than it permits to control it. Lying about religion to non Muslims is a second nature for Muslims. Helping fellows Muslims will always be more important for most Muslims than our people and culture here.
As long as Islam is what it is today, we must reject it, yes ban it. Or its corruption will continue to spread.
Comment by ajm — March 28, 2006 @ 2:02 pm
great Blog !!
I just wanted to say that http://www.metransparent.com is not accessable in egypt (blocked ??!!)
so, use your favourate proxy.
using anonymouse.org the link would be this
Comment by anonymose — March 28, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
http://info.rsr.ch/fr/rsr.html?siteSect=500&sid=5951956&cKey=1121757576000
Then click “Interview d’Elham Manea, politologue musulmane qui enseigne à l’université de Zurich.”
It is an interview on the Swiss radio. It is in French, but Manea speaks English.
She says Islam should be one of SwitzerlandÂ’s official religions, not the one. But it is actually a dumb proposal, as such, on the juridical plane. And a politician comes afterwards to set the record straight.
In Switzerland, the recognition of religions as communities is the responsibility of cantons (like US states). The federal laws are regulating only the liberty of conscience and of religion as a belief.
So that there is no simple way to just “recognize” Islam as an official religion in Switzerland. Islamists have to struggle in each canton separately, and that goes a long way to explain why we still are more preserved than your neighbors.
But assuming that the federal state would legislate about that (it would require a popular vote), it would be possible, theoretically, to change the constitution (art. 15) in order to create such a national recognition.
But that would question all religions in the country; it would launch a huge national debate. And that, the debate on which religions are good and useful and which not, that debate would be a really good thing. In my opinion.
But of course I hope Swiss people would reject Islam, then, outlaw it. And I would do all I can to get to it. Oh yes I would.
Comment by ajm — March 28, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
link is fine-I got to the article. Interesting though to bear in mind that Islam does not consider the fall from Eden to be Eve’s fault (i.e. there is no concept of “original sin” which her article seems to imply). Being “clean” during prayer to God is not required of just women-its required of everyone (men can’t pray either in certain states of “impurity”). However if she means reading Quran while menstruating, that is a matter of debate and many women consider they should be able to do that nevertheless.
Comment by Laila El-Haddad — March 28, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
AJM, thanks. I misread your original post; “an official religion” as oppossed to “the official religion”.
You might be right that this is cause for concern but I like the fact that she’s challenging Islamic dogma. She might not express views that you or I agree with but this my guess as to how Islam will reform…
Muslims in Europe and the US will reinterpret Islamic dogma and this reformed version of Islam will be exported back to the Muslim world. It’s not going to happen overnight but I think it will happen eventually.
Comment by Kilgore Trout — March 28, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
Well, I think you’re wrong. This kind of reform has been unsuccessful for centuries. To reinterpret the few flowerily passages of the Koran, traditions, commentaries and laws that can be reinterpreted wonÂ’t make the job. It is the base itself that must be challenged, the belief that Islam is something divine.
Because you just canÂ’t reinterpret the djihad, the dhimma and the hududs away. Because it is quite clearly the core intent of Islam. No-one having studied that body of laws ever came to the conclusion that it could be interpreted as a message of tolerance.
The rest are lies, mandatory lies, actually.
Comment by Alain Jean-Mairet — March 28, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
Alain Jean-Mairet,
Someone sent me this link of the folks at Ummah debating the fate of the Afghan Chritian convert…
http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81895
If you’re interested, scroll through and read the comments by “SisterKhadija”. I’m not Muslim nor a Koran expert but to say Islam can’t be reinterpreted doesn’t seem true at all. People seem to do it all the time. The big question is will it catch on.
Comment by Kilgore Trout — March 28, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
I got confused at “menstrual period”. Are women in Islam discouraged from even praying when they are menstruating? Why? Does this have anything to do with a notion that Allah is “male”? Or does Allah transcend gender?
Comment by Canadienne Errante — March 28, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
Canadienne,
I think it has to do with issues of cleanliness. It’s common in many cultures that menstruating women have certain religious restrictions. Most American Indian cultures have rules about this.
Comment by Kilgore Trout — March 28, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
SisterKhadija is lying as her faith commands her to do. And she does it in a quite crude way, if you think of it for a while. She mentions a few references (about some terrible punishment in the thereafter) and says that as it is not said in those references that apostates should be killed, it means that apostates are safe. What logic is that?
Now see: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0027/_PD.HTM#15S:
- – - – -
Kuran 4:89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
- – - – -
And a few hadiths there: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/164859.php
- – - – -
It is quite clear. Muslims who know their religion must kill apostates. And if you want to reform that, you have to rewrite the Kuran and hadiths, and commentaries and sharia. Never ever has a serious student of Islam been able to say to his peers (in Arabic) that apostates should walk free. It is just impossible to advocate that based on the Islamic scriptures, unless you audience is ignorant of those scriptures.
But Muslims must talk only in good terms of their religion to non Muslims. And that means to tell them what is needed for making them believe that Islam is a nice religion, to convince them to convert to Islam. The call to faith is the first step of offensive jihad, which is a collective duty for Muslims. And, as time went by, all possible sorts of ruses were invented and refined to that purpose, partly, btw, in order to avoid the next part of jihad – the killing of those who refuses the faith. For Muslims are people in the first place, most of them don’t like the message of their faith, actually, and they repel it.
But now think about what it means to say that infidels will burn in hell forever, as SisterKhadija is presenting as a proof that apostates or infidels are “only” threatened by God in hell. It is repeated hundreds of time in the scriptures, in all possible way. It does have an effect on people: it inspires hatred for those people who refuse the faith. It helps convince Muslims, pious Muslims, who read their scriptures, that it is more than okay to kill infidels, and apostates in the first place.
Comment by Alain Jean-Mairet — March 28, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
Alain, Your assumption that, “SisterKhadija is lying as her faith commands her to do” is silly. She’s debating with other muslims, she might be right or she might be wrong but the assetion that she lying just to dupe the few non-Muslims that might read it just seems paranoid.
Is Elham Manea lying about praying while on her period to dupe us into thinking that Islam can reform?
I think where you and I have differences is that you seem to be searching for a literal and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Many Jews don’t keep kosher but they are still jews. Many Muslims don’t consider the American movement Nation of Islam to not be real Muslims. They can be Muslims, Jews or Christians and they can interpret their religion any way they want to as far as I’m concerned, they don’t need my permission. I will, however, continue to applaud those who want to reform Islam. They have a tough job; I wish them luck and I hope they make some progress soon.
Comment by Kilgore Trout — March 28, 2006 @ 7:39 pm
Those who really want to reform Islam are those who know and accept the texts as they are, and declare that they want to work at that level, consciously.
Those who chose to ignore perfectly clear “divine” orders such as “But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them” (please see the context and grasp the tone at http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0027/_PD.HTM#15S
are just dishonest people.
Let me quote just one more, central, verse: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0027/_P8.HTM#4P
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3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
- – - – -
If Islam is to be reformed, it wonÂ’t be thanks to some new interpretation of its texts. It will be because Muslims chose to look at them in an objective light, at last.
Comment by Alain Jean-Mairet — March 28, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
The comment about menstruation, cleanliness and religious restrictions reminds me of an incident in Britain, after Christian missionaries got there. There were Anglo-Saxon women who were ashamed to go to church and receive Communion when they were menstruating, so a missionary wrote back to the pope, Gregory the Great for advice. Old Gregory said that menstruation was perfectly natural and no reason for women not to receive Communion. THIS WAS AROUND 600 AD, PEOPLE.
Comment by Canadienne Errante — March 29, 2006 @ 2:32 am
All this crap about tedious and irrelevant details reminds me so much of medieval christian scholars dedicating their lives to arguments about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. The doctrinal frills and decorations of any religion are supremely UNIMPORTANT. What matters is the policy and the ACTIONS that control the lives of the adherents. Contemporary ISLAM thus shows itself to be nothing more than a savage political ideology with absolutely NO life enhancing qualities and a morbid preoccupation with death. When did you last see a happy contented Muslim who wasn’t trying to accuse somebody of some insult or infraction ?
Comment by Sean Shalor — March 29, 2006 @ 8:09 am
My husband whose not a Muslim asked me once why I was not allowed to pray and fast while having my monthly stuff. I told him that we’re considered dirty at that time and it is forbidden to do it.
He was shocked. He couldn’t understand why God would consider such a natural thing dirty especially when he is the creator. He said “sounds like some man thought it was dirty”. He opened my eyes. I never thought about it that way before.”
Comment by Leila — March 29, 2006 @ 12:42 pm
I never thought about it that way before.”
Nor afterwards – it is to be hoped !
.
Comment by Sean Shalor — March 29, 2006 @ 1:13 pm
Muslim men are allowed to marry non-muslim women. Their children have to be muslim.
And a muslim women is forbidden to marry a non-muslim man. It is a dis-honour if she does and that usually results in the women being ‘erased’and the non muslim man and his family ‘taught’ a ‘lesson’
In a muslim divorce, the man gets the kids. The kids have to be raised as muslims too.
Also: Check out the Montreal Massacre of Mark Lepine – he killed 14 women in 1990 – reported soley in the media as an ‘anti-feminist’ rage – instead he was a muslim algerian-canadian taught to take revenge by his divorced muslim father.
They tried to bring Sharia law for civil cases in Ontario, Canada but the muslim women there, campaigned against it, for good reason!
Comment by Zad Zack — March 29, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
She says “The Islamic world has not reached yet a stage where Muslims can say, “Even if this rule is set in the Qur’an, it should not be accepted today.””
The trouble with this reasoning is that, if you do NOT accept the Qur’an as the final revelation of God to man, then you have to judge it on its own merits. (After all, there are thousands of people, from Zoroaster to Pat Robertson, from Teresa of Avila to the children at Fatima, etc., etc., who have claimed to have received a message of God for mankind.)
And this is the problem — and, yes, I am aware I have been repeatedly asking the same question in different words, but I keep on not getting an answer.
“What is there about the Qur’an, about Islam that makes a believer who does NOT accept it as the unchangeable final word continue to accept it? What are the positive things about the Qur’an, about Islam, that make it superior to other religious or an ethical secularism?”
Comment by Prup (aka Jim Benton) — March 29, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
Wafa Saltan is an American and in America she is allowed to hold her beliefs and that is what makes America different from were she was born. She is one of my heros I only wish I was half as brave as she is.
Comment by yochanan — March 29, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
I don’t get this notion, that only muslims can talk sense to muslims? What does your background have to with reason? Judge a person on their words, and not on whether they’re on all 4 at least 5 times a day …
Comment by Bitman — March 29, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
Any chance of a translation FFE?
Comment by Steven — March 29, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
“What does your background have to with reason”
Your background surely has to do with the amount of knowledge and the source of knowledge of which you will gain the facts upon which you will aruge.
If you have not had the chance to view most of the resources, to read them, to study the langauge to understand it, to visit the places to meet the people. How do you expect to give an honest opinion let alone a correct opinion about a group of people, a religion, a country or a culture???
Akis
Comment by Akis — March 30, 2006 @ 11:57 am
“If you have not had the chance to view most of the resources, to read them, to study the langauge to understand it, to visit the places to meet the people. How do you expect to give an honest opinion let alone a correct opinion about a group of people, a religion, a country or a culture???”
I really don’t get it.
Muslim spokespersons have lots of opinions about the West – mostly rather negative opinions. Their lack of even basic knowledge doesn’t seem to bother them.
Comment by dp — March 30, 2006 @ 7:25 pm
[...] I blogged before about Elham Manea, the Yemeni intellectual with very daring thoughts. Manea has written an article urging Muslim women to remove their hair covers. Her article was quoted on Al Arabiya website. She was ripped apart by the commentors there. Few comments were in support of her though. "I call on you, my Muslim sister, to take off the veil. This is an honest call… Its intention is not to defile you, nor to encourage you to [moral] lassitude. I call on you to exercise [free] thought and to use your own mind. [...]
Pingback by The Big Pharaoh » That’s My Girl — April 28, 2006 @ 8:00 am
Alain Jean-Mairet
You’re just another dimwit who knows nothing about what he’s talking about.
Reading & interpreting the Quran as fanatics do while extracting the verses from their circumstancial surroundings prove what an idiot you are.
Comment by Alienkain — April 28, 2006 @ 11:25 am
Tank you Alienkain!
finally! i hoped reading a comment like yours since the beginning of that blog! you are absolutly right, hes practising the same as every fanatic group! and sure, you can discuss jihad, jizya and tolerance in islam, but it is important to do it on a scientific way and not to believe all that polemic stuff which is written in european and american media, often written by journalists without any arabic knowledge…
did you study the Qur’an, the Ahadith and discussions of different ulama’ in arabic so that you can claim that you understood now the full meaning of jihad for example, Alain Jean-Mairet?!
Comment by Emily-Sophia — May 22, 2006 @ 10:40 pm
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Comment by Connecticet — January 23, 2007 @ 8:11 am
A pleasure to look at, go on with this! Thanks!
Comment by Anonymous — April 20, 2007 @ 11:15 am